Butterfly Swords

This weapon is bad, and there are a few reviews that say it is, but it is hard to understand just how... amazingly terrible this weapon is. On first blush it is just not that good but it is actually far more insidious than that.

To understand why this is such an amazingly bad weapon, you need to do my favorite thing: Lots of math!

Drawing from the bag a lot of times to achieve an effect is, in Arkham, a bad thing to do. This isn't intuitive, there are many games where "Make 3 tests to do 1 damage 3 times" is actually better than "Make 1 test to do 3 damage." Arkham is not one of those games.

When making attacks with the swords, you test twice. One is probably an auto-success if the other has any chance of success, which means your expecting about a 7% to 4% autofail on one, and 25% fail rate on the other (say... you have 7 total combat strength vs a 5 fight enemy). This means your expected damage comes out to about 5 expected damage when swinging this thing around in a fairly standard situation to be in, which makes it not even a full +1 damage weapon. You are just flatly better off using a weapon with a stronger hitrate boost than a +2 in this scenario, as well as making your attacks hit harder than a mere +1, rather than trying to play into some weird sort of consolation prize for failing while also failing more. After all, you can make up for lost damage on fails way more easily by doing double the damage AND failing less, rather than attacking twice as often.

And your reward for probably being worse than a neutral 1 handed weapon in output is... producing more scenario specific negative tokens. Assuming there are 2 tokens you really don't want to draw for their own sake in a 15 token bag (which is pretty standard for arkham early to mid campaign), you will see one of those really bad tokens 43% of the time. This is probably the best you can expect, but it can get much, much worse.

Just a little example that minimizes spoilers: In Carcosa's first scenario, if you are trying to push past an enemy in a room affected by the scenario, you can expect to take 2 horror every turn you fight with these (not to mention it is a scenario with a -4 symbol). Obviously you can't have the swords at this scenario, but if you hypothetically had the butter knives right now, you probably would completely kill yourself from full health as most guardians after 3 turns of fighting.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg: Spawning enemies, placing doom, losing clues (though obviously that last one is less of a concern for guardians), losing assets, enemies healing, enemies damaging friends, losing actions, all of these things and more can happen on token draws and more! The terrors trying to do kung fu will bring you cannot be understated, and it is why this weapon is so amazingly bad: Not only does it make you worse at fighting than pretty much any other XP weapon that doesn't have a taboo (and probably most 0 XP in guardian) but it makes the game harder for everyone as your turn partially becomes Arkham Horror's turn.

This is why 'purely benign' skill cards like Alchemical Transmutation are considered bad if their upshot isn't strong enough: Merely drawing from the bag for a skill test is a downside even if the listed consequence for failure is 'nothing' often enough. Even rogues don't generally set themselves up for lowball 'nothing' tests.

"But what if the first attack would generally hit?" If the first test would generally pass anyway, you absolutely should be using a different weapon. The only advantage of the swords is to make it virtually guaranteed you will do 1 damage vs enemies you have a harder time hitting. If you are fairly sure you will hit anyway, you hurt yourself any time you are not stabbing a rat because now you fail to do 2 damage 10% of the time (assuming the bag is fairly mild that scenario), compared to the 5% of a normal weapon. Doing more than 1 damage an attack is why you bring weapons in the first place, baring some very specific exceptions, and this just made you WORSE at it than a 2 XP weapon. And, obviously, this gets worse the worse the bag is for you, and it causes worse things to happen to you over the course of a campaign. If even 3 'really bad' tokens are in the bag, you actually will expect to see more than one a turn on average. It gets really terrible for you, really fast.

"What if they release a card that rewards you for spamming attacks?" This is called Custom Ammo, it is fantastic. They will probably never release a version of this card that would work with a machete, and building around 5 XP card using an equivalent event or skill in guardian is obviously a non-starter: Yes you could with a hypothetical full turn +1 event do 13 damage on the turn you play it... or you could just use a lightning gun or flamethrower every turn, and just use the support slot in the deck for ammo. This card will probably never get support because any support it does get would be too dangerous to game balance in the context of other, better weapons. We might see it on something like a character power, but if it was gunna happen it would probably have happened on Lilly Chen. Maybe a scenario specific asset, but obviously that is of very limited general deckbuilding utility and even a damage boost of 1 probably isn't good enough to overcome the 'you are drawing bad tokens every other turn with this and your team is begging you to stop' problem. Either way, if they were gunna print that and intended for it to be used with this weapon, wouldn't it have been in this set?

"What if I am Lilly Chen, or don't want to use ammo synergy cards?" Timeworn Brand exists, which out preforms this card in basically every way as well as freeing a hand slot for a useful tool or backup weapon. As does Cyclopean Hammer, which usually radically out preforms either as long as you build around it even slightly.

The cruelest thing about this weapon is that it came out in the EOTE box, which is probably the worst campaign to use it, because it will probably actively kill you there on your first playthrough if it gets even remotely cold, but there are a few other campaigns this weapon is very bad, such as Carcosa (where in some scenarios skulls are effectively autofails, meaning you will have 4 autofails in a 17 sized bag and thus you will be doing an average of 1.2 damage a swing with these even assuming you are otherwise good on the bag), TFA (Speedrun killing yourself!) and TCU (where pretty much every scenario past early game has really bad token effects).

We could also get into all the anti-synergy with any sort of temporary boosting effect (like 'pay to pump,' exhausting boosts, or committed cards), or the fact these are a nightmare vs any retaliate enemy (again, have fun in Carcosa where you will statistically take more damage than you deal vs some enemies just from the skulls+autofail problem!), and how these are not technically a strict upgrade on knives 2 (they have overall better potential damage, but if you care about having a very 'sure thing' 2 damage they are worse for characters with good speed), but the fact these are low damage weapons with a big downside is already enough to sink them as a concept: You want your low damage weapons to either have the potential to do more than high damage weapons, or come with some big upside that overcomes the fact they don't do the primary job of weapons as well. You don't want them to have a special gimmick that just makes them worse.

This weapon could be named 'Cursed Butterfly Swords' and it would make more thematic sense, the effect of drawing lots of tokens will cause so many bad things to happen it feels like it should be a "I gain radical power in exchange for this benefit." effect. But in reality it promises, at most, just 1 extra damage on top of what a Timeworn Brand (already not exactly the highest damage weapon in the game) does if everything goes perfectly, and has a lower average expected damage output than it in reality. It is deeply in need of some sort of help to make any sort of sense to take in any deck.

dezzmont · 222
And then you sell it to amanda and the universe implodes as she gets roughly eighty billion attacks. the cards that combo with butterfly swords aren't theoretical, if we get a guardian written in the stars or even atlas it will be amazing and we already have a few characters who are close to using written with it anyway. — Zerogrim · 296
The payoff with Amanda totally ignoring that it is effectively a 2 handed solo mode only combo is, at least for damage, 12 in a turn. This is nice, but it is, for a 5 XP weapon, 'par' for guns, and slightly above average for class specific 2 handed melee. It is a bit more interesting with say... Overpower, because it is harder to directly compare drawing 3 cards with drawing 6, but while the Amanda combo is the jank I love, the payoff of 'doubling' attacks won't make sense unless the benefit is so overwhelming it overshadows base weapon damage/effects: Sure I could do a hypothetical 'guardian written' to get ONE turn where I can do 12 butterfly damage... or I could just do that with my 3 damage weapon and attack thrice a turn for 12 damage anyway. Or just use the combo space in the deck to reload guns that do 4 damage an attack natively. If the combo isn't out-preforming 'weapon par' it isn't really a combo. — dezzmont · 222
So, for the kind of support this weapon needs to make sense, we wouldn't be looking for some sort of 'bonus damage on attack' effect unless it was such a ridiculous level it breaks the game anyway. Instead, we would need both the following to be true: 1: It needs to be some sort of bonus that is hard to replicate with just a stronger weapon (say... drawing cards, getting resources, healing, ect.), AND it needs to be consistent enough to build a deck out of (you can't build a deck around a combo you can only use once or twice per scenario, after all). I think the first is more likely than expecting a viable guardian turn long damage boost effect, because it is a natural guardian space, but I have serious doubts of if it will be consistent enough that it is viable as a deck's engine, and thus worth using a two handed 5XP card. — dezzmont · 222
the whole point is that you don't need to wait for the 19 damage butterfly swords move to be possible, its already possible. hard to pull off sure, but possible.(BfS+WitS+VB2) it will only get easier in time, or we will just get a campaign with alot of high fight, low health enemies which the swords are great at dispatching. — Zerogrim · 296
sidenote: why o why isn't it jsut "exhaust on a succesful attack to do +1 damage" — Zerogrim · 296
Not to disagree with your review. But you mentioned, they might design some "scenario specific asset", that boosts this weapon. They actually already did that. You can get her in the very first scenario of this game. — Susumu · 382
* actually after the scenario, not in it. — Susumu · 382
@Zerogrim: Said enemies would be better tackled by flamethrower or grenades. Any 'rapid attack payoff' needs to offset quite a lot of distance because you can attack a lot with any melee, so it needs to hit this weird sweetspot of "useful enough that I want to do it 6 times, but also doing it 3 times isn't enough. And I agree that it is weird that isn't the effect, because it causes the level 5 to be a weird downgrade in very specific scenarios that the level 2 was actually good at (such as being a pseudo-sidegrade to a bow for Skids, who can't use the magic bow to auto-reload) @ Susumu: Well that asset is in it too, as you can take control of it during the scenario. I was grammatically unclear because of the header of that section, there are scenario assets that do this but building around a scenario asset is (usually) not wise. In addition, while Lita does make the knives do 13 damage on 4 hits, you can also just, again, use a good weapon to get to that level with her as well, because it is fairly easy to get a weapon that is more than just 1 damage per-action on knives. Read as "It is unlikely we will see a lot of very powerful turn wide boosts outside of one off effects on story assets, because the designers are pretty aware this is a dangerous design space." — dezzmont · 222
Amanda can just use Acidic Ichor... — MrGoldbee · 1496
Exactly. "6 savage blows in one turn!" sounds amazing but the only reason the universe would implode after setting off that combo is because you just lost in TCU. — dezzmont · 222
Geared Up

Not saying that this is a great card, but it's a fun challenge during deck buildung (and upgrading) and makes every opening hand draw exciting. I had some success with Geared Up and Rex Murphy, but most things I noticed should work with different investigators as well.

1.) Try to find cheap items rather than pricy ones. Costs of 1-3 are the right spot. In fact, my Rex' deck contained no items more expensive than 3. You should be able to pay for ALL your items from your starting hand.

2.) Upgrade your items as soon as possible. Not only will it makes your early game more powerful, upgraded items also have better icons for committing into skill tests. Sometimes they get cheaper too or have abilities.

3.) Mulligan hard for items, even if it hurts.

4.) Because you pack lots of items and often two copies, clever ways of discarding copies (with bad icons) from your hand or from play helps your mid-/late-game where you already have your assets out. Examples are Cornered, Occult Invocation, Blood-Rite, Act of Desperation or even mitigating discard effects like in Divination or Mists of R'lyeh. I paired Geared Up with Forced Learning to get rid of double items during upkeep. Items which go away or go empty like Disc of Itzamna or Scroll of Secrets allows you to refill the slots. Investigators like "Ashcan" Pete and Wendy Adams (Hello In the Thick of It / Versatile) for discarding cards from hand, but also William Yorick and Dexter Drake should find ways to utilize left over items.

5.) Remember that you still can play fast cards or use actions on your items in turn one. That's why I love Eon Chart, because as a item it grants free move and/or investigate actions right at the start. The tabooed Scroll of Secrets (all versions) helps you refilling your hand for the mythos. Fast Events like Working a Hunch or Shortcut (2) also are playable in turn one. Funny: If you happen to find No Stone Unturned (5) in your opening hand, you could play it right at the beginning of the investigation phase (but before your turn begins) to catch Schoffner's Catalogue, a critical weapon or signature item or Backpack (2) for playing it for free with Geared Up.

6.) To get the most out of it economy wise, non-fast items comes to mind. But don't be afraid to include fast items like Magnifying Glass, Ice Pick or Segment of Onyx. You will get the resource reducing anyhow. Also fast items don't slow down your mid-/late-game if you draw them late.

7.) The most difficult part for me to make Geared Up work is to find items with different or no slots. Because if you have a pile of cards which required hand slots you'll end up drawing them as essentially dead items slowing down your game. Relic Hunter is a possibility to play more accessories. If you look closely, there are neat items with no or odd slots: Dream-Enhancing Serum and Talisman of Protection just use arcane slots, if you have no spells to prepare. Slotless mentions are Handcuffs, Mk 1 Grenades, Bandages, Tennessee Sour Mash and Liquid Courage. And then there are the great Schoffner's Catalogue and the footwear items, of course. The true winners in my Rex Murphy deck though were 2 Strange Solution, which I upgraded with the help of Into the Rabbit Hole and Shrewd Analysis. 3 Segment of Onyx (also slotless) were fun, too. You shouldn't play much body slot items, because Backpack is the best option here (if it works with Geared Up, playing the item assets one at a time, which I think it should). Once I were able to play all items from one Backpack, followed by another Backpack.

8.) Be aware that there could be a few locks in scenarios, but also cheesy benefits to consider. In Curse of the Rougarou I started the game at a location were I was not allowed to play any assets at all. If you use the tarot deck from Return to Circle Undone, there are all sorts of silly interactions: One tarot card that forbids to play assets turn one, another steals slots or cards in your opening hand, starting resources or your mulligan. On the other hand, “2 fewer actions” don't hurt you at all, and 2 additional mulligans or 2 additional cards in the opening hand get very powerful.

Miroque · 25
I think this is the first card with Hank Samson on it. Wonder what he'll be like. — Pinchers · 133
Played it in a Yorick deck and it s been a blast , setting up so much in one turn with backpack and schoffners catalogue , saving so much ressources and actions.Obviously stick to the plan +ever vigilant is better but it can come close in yorick deck and that s a pretty impressive achievement for a 0xp card — Susu · 36
This doesn’t work with Shoffner’s or Backpack. — Eudaimonea · 6
Without a clear ruling i cant im gonna Play it the same way ever vigilant works.just the fact that you Play multiples cards at once ist clunky and a first — Surp · 1
There doesn’t need to be a ruling to make this card read as written; there would need to be an errata to make it work the way players who want to abuse Geared Up / Shoffner’s / Backpack want it to. The text of the card is clear, and even if we pretend there is ambiguity the Grim Rule requires us to read it more restrictively until official rulings otherwise. That said, I certainly respect your and anyone else’s ability to house rule however you want. It’s one matter to issue a little personal home errata in order to have more fun, but it’s quite another to go on ArkhamDB and point out that this is an awesome card with a powerful combo that (disclaimer) actually doesn’t work unless you house rule it to work differently from its plain text. — Eudaimonea · 6
Cheat the System

This card is an instant classic in big money Sefina, but even better in Underworld support big money. (Why would you run that? Because it gets you a smaller deck which gets you closer to Double, Double.) With scroll of secrets, tennessee Sour mash or any number of spells, this is free real estate. And you can even use it during the encounter phase to boost a well-connected. Definitely worth one XP. And the flavor text is fun.

MrGoldbee · 1496
Untimely Transaction

This card came out in the same pack as Bob Jenkins, and it’s a card about selling something, so obviously Bob should take it, right?

Surprisingly not! While it’s a good way to retain money in the party, you can already split the cost of items, and you get a free action to do so every turn. We slotted this in a four player campaign and it mostly stuck in Bob’s hand, especially when his signature came out.

But other rogues, especially ones who pack double assets for reliability but only slot one… this is upside. Winnifred can sell off her spare lockpick or Mauser to a seeker or guardian. Sefina can give a spare crystallizer to Nathaniel… or if there’s enough money around, double double and sell liquid courage too.

Smart use is giving people things they can’t normally play with (like guns to Preston and Lily). Genius use is using this with your survivor to give them a card that cost just as much money as they have, so they can trigger Dark Horse and you get a nice round number for well-connected. Plus, you draw a card for being such an upstanding player.

Fun fact: the quote for this card isn’t from game lore. It actually came from playtesting.

MrGoldbee · 1496
This is a relatively minor thing, but I did want to mention that you can't actually give Nacho a Crystallizer. Part of the cost of the crystallizer's cost is to shuffle in a Guardian of the Crystallizer to your deck, which Nacho doesn't have in his bonded cards (since those aren't shared, unless he already had a Crystallizer of Dreams in his deck with Versatile, but that kinda defeats the point) — Lasiace · 23
You cannot play the card if you cannot pay the cost. It means that you cannot play Crystallizer with Untimely Transaction in normal case. — elkeinkrad · 504
Does it work if the other person has crystalliser in their deck? — Django · 5165
I'm pretty sure that people really overread the bonded cards - the crystallizer brings the bonded card into the deck, and if the crystallizer comes into play from someone else's deck via shens, they just bring in your copy of the Guardian - the ACTUAL problem is that you only have 1 copy of the weakness, so you'd have to sacrifice your own crystallizer out of the good of your heart, because you only have one copy of the guardian to put into play. — Lailah · 1
Stupid question: You can play this in True Solo to put Old Shutgun with ammo in play, but other than that, it's useless? You don't get to draw a card or get resources? ("they") — Miroque · 25
@Miroque You cannot use this in True Solo at all. It plays the card to "another investigator", which cannot be you. Ever. — adran06 · 19
Butterfly Swords

As dezzmont said, this weapon could be on the anti-taboo list someday, hopefully.

I think the intent of the Game Designers was to force Lily Chen to invest in multiple stats over the course of the campaign, first with Spectral Razor, Brand of Cthugha and of course take advantage of your Spells used to boost the Dragon Pole. Then transition to that helps for every attack, and end the campaign with for all the upgraded cards.

Butterfly Swords, Defensive Stance, Sweeping Kick, Dodge, Fang of Tyr'thrha, Combat Training are all focussed and this all goes to "Sounds good but I will most likely never use it" area as there is literally no reason to use any of these when the Cyclopean Hammer is better on every aspect and doesn't require you to transition from to .

So I was thinking of leaving a review about how I wish to make this weapon better, while still fair.


The Combat bonus:

When comparing to the Cyclopean Hammer, the Flamethrower, the Lightning Gun, Shotgun, the combat bonus of +2 on a Hand x2 lvl 5 card seems a bit minimal for a basic attack.

The exception is the Holy Spear but it comes in a deck that is suppose to pull a lot of to compensate for the low bonus.

Suggested Fix:

It would make sense to have "Add your " This would make it more balanced maybe in that sense, especially as only Lily Chen, Sister Mary and Mark Harrigan have 3 .


Synergy with Balance of the Body:

I like the idea that lvl 5 weapons are "tailored" for the they are released with, like the Holy Spear and Sister Mary and here, the lacks of synergy with Lily is striking.

Suggested Fix:

So how to make these Butterfly Swords more adapted to Lily Chen? A lead could be the Balance of the Body that allows you to make 3 different attacks, meaning use 3 different ": Fight." triggers.

If the swords would for example have the non-exhaust attack as a different trigger than the exhaust one that deals 1 more damage, that would allow us to use the 2 actions of the Discipline activation only with the Butterfly Swords, leaving us only with the 3rd attack to fill in our deck, with Sweeping Kick for example, that would find a good use here (when I would not add it to my deck otherwise), or Spectral Razor that I probably started with.


Let me know in the comments your suggested fix and I'll try to keep this updated!


Last little comment for anyone wondering: you can exhaust the Butterfly Swords on the 1st attack and keep using the normal attack for the following attacks. The only restriction is that you cannot exhaust them twice (unless you use Galvanize).

Valentin1331 · 81114
I think the core issue with this card is that it is a low damage weapon with the gimmick based around overcoming that. Low damage weapons are better than most people think (the guardian tommygun is amazing in the right deck) but if I want to do high damage with a weapon I would just take a good weapon. A 5 XP weapon that does 5 damage a full turn of attacking better have an even better upshot than 6 damage and 3 resources. Having played with it, it is mystifyingly bad, and spamming attacks is a strict downside (as you want to minimize bagpulls in Arkham). — dezzmont · 222
what 5xp weapon does 5 damage for a full turn of attacks?, butterfly swords does (in theory) seven damage, you get 2 attacks per activation regardless of if its exhausted or not. — Zerogrim · 296
Butterfly Swords is not nearly the level of bad that cards have previously been to justify taboo buffs. 'Slightly disappointing in comparison to the Hammers' is not that level of bad. Making more tests in a turn is generally worse, but if we ever get more cards in that archetype, or that allow skills to be committed across multiple tests in Guardian (a la Written in the Stars), this card will suddenly become incredibly broken. — SSW · 217
@zerogrim, the fact you repeatedly draw tokens heavily pushes the expected damage of this weapon down. Assuming either there is an 'effectively autofail' campaign symbol, or you are rocking a 75% success rate by being 2 above the target on normal (where this weapon would be the best), but the speed boost pushes you into 'expected autohit' range, you expect to lose about 2 damage. @SSW, this card actually strongly resembles two weapons that DID get a buff, the Springfield and the Winchester. Equiping the Springfield, much like the swords, makes you far more likely to lose scenarios compared to just sticking to a regular weapon, while like the Winchester it is a case of 'interpreting a weakness (unreliable damage in the winchester's case, and spam attacks in the swords case) as a plus. While a hypothetical 'boost a turn of attacks' effects would help, it would need to be an asset you get all the time that works on melee to actually justify playing around a card that has such a negative effect on not just you, but your entire team on some scenarios (it is WILD this card was introduced in the campaign with frost tokens, but there are worse things in the bag than autofails), and I suspect they realize they never can print such a card for the same reason they taboo'd machette. — dezzmont · 222