夢境結晶器

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费用: 1.

流浪者

作為打出本卡牌的額外費用，你必須在你的綁定卡牌中查找1張結晶器守衛，並將其混洗入你的牌堆。(FAQ, v1.9)

在你打出一張事件卡後：不將其丟棄，改為將其正面朝下疊加到夢境結晶器(最多疊加5張事件卡)。可以將疊加的事件卡投入技能檢定，如同其為你的手牌。

Ethan Patrick Harris
食夢者 #24.
夢境結晶器

FAQs

(from the official FAQ or responses to the official rules question form)

  • NB: ArkhamDB now incorporates errata from the Arkham Horror FAQ in its card text, so the ArkhamDB text and the card image above differ, as the ArkhamDB text has been edited to contain this erratum (updated January 2022): Erratum: The additional cost on this card should read: "As an additional cost to play this card...". - FAQ, v.1.9, June 2021 [see also The Hungering Blade]

  • "As If": This was added to the FAQ (v.1.7, March 2020) and then amended (v.1.8, October 2020). You can read the October ruling on the ArkhamDB rules page here. (I'm adding a hyperlink rather than retyping the rules in case in future the ruling is changed or amended - at that point, the rules page will be updated and all ArkhamDB FAQ entries will link to the correct ruling.)

  • Q: How does The Painted World interact with Crystallizer of Dreams, as they both replace the discard effect? A: "Both effects are replacement effects, and since The Painted World’s replacement effect is forced and Crystallizer of Dreams is optional, the forced effect would take priority and resolves first. Therefore The Painted World must be removed from the game after it is played and cannot be placed underneath Crystallizer of Dreams."

  • Q: Which triggers first: Parallel Agnes Baker ability or Heirloom of Hyperborea? What about Crystallizer of Dreams? A: An event card is placed on top of its owner’s discard pile during step 4 of the play/initiation sequence, so any effect that modifies where the event goes (such as Parallel Agnes Baker or Crystallizer of Dreams) must occur during that step. An effect that triggers “after you play” an event but does not modify where the event goes (such as Heirloom of Hyberborea’s ability) would naturally trigger just after step 4. - FAQ, v.2.0, August 2022

  • Q: If a card such as Cheap Shot is returned to my hand, what areas am I allowed to retrieve it from? If it is shuffled into my deck, can I still return it to my hand? A: In general, unless otherwise specified, players can “return” such a card from any play area, so long as it is in an area that allows the card to be found and identified. For example, if Cheap Shot is in the discard pile or attached to another card (such as a Crystallizer of Dreams) and you are able to find it, you may return it to your hand from that area. However, if it is in a place where its position is impossible to determine (such as shuffled into your deck) or facedown in a place where you are not allowed to look at its other side (for example, as a swarm card), you would be unable to return it to your hand, and therefore that aspect of the effect would fail. Additionally, if Cheap Shot is removed from the game, unless specifically stated otherwise, no game effects can interact with it in any way until the end of the game. - FAQ, v.1.8, October 2020

Last updated

Reviews

This card is excellent. Rogues in general don't have a lot of competition for the accessory slot. Lucky Cigarette Case is nice, but a bit expensive before it really starts paying off and requires you to invest in either oversuccess or extra actions to trigger reliably. Still it's probably the easier card to run versus Crystallizer of Dreams, which requires paying very close attention to the pips on your event cards. You can do a quick search of Rogue Events here on the db and see that two icons show up fairly often on most cards: and . Staple cards like Elusive, "You handle this one!", Sleight of Hand, Think on Your Feet, and Slip Away all have this exact pairing. Easy Mark for 1 XP nets you great economy and deck cycling in 3 cards, all of which also have this pairing. Intel Report and Narrow Escape are also solid includes with double icons.

It's for this reason that I think the card is particularly standout for Finn Edwards, who can easily take advantage of both stats. "Skids" O'Toole is also pretty keen on it, and On the Lam is an ace target for the skull. If this does work with The Painted World (for now I assume it does) then it's obviously a strong pickup for Sefina Rousseau. All of these investigators can take advantage of the icons for events they already want to play.

Tony Morgan is also a great Crystallizer candidate, but he probably has to build around it the most carefully. He doesn't like first of all, so a lot of Rogue events are just worse for him in that way. However, he gets // access, and depending on how you build him you have a lot of great icons available to make him more flexible:

Tony of course also has an easier time getting extra actions and fighting at a really high value, so triggering Lucky Cigarette Case is really easy for him. You'll have to build him very carefully to make Crystallizer worth it over LCC.

I'd suggest very broadly that this card is easier ran on lower counts. On higher counts specialization is easier and LCC activates more frequently, especially for Tony who will have lots to fight. On lower counts the weakness here is less meaningful as you can feasibly ignore it (it takes a while for it to even do anything once it shows up).

StyxTBeuford · 12985
I'm currently playing Tony with the crystallizer and a guardian event based deck, it works really. — Django · 5070
Sorry, didn't mean to send the comment already. Some things I've noticed: 1. Great combo in an event based deck with Double, Double (Evidence: Get 2 clues and commit it for a third); 2. When I've got events in hand i try to save them until i get the Crystallizer out. Lucky Cigarette case helps search for it. 3. guardian of the crystallizer: it might cause problems for non combat rogue decks like finn or waste shriveling charges for Sefina. — Django · 5070
I wouldn't generally call this card excellent. While it IS in deck with sufficient events, it's useless if don't have any. Rogue "Succeed by 2" decks built more around skills would be an example. — Django · 5070
Right, that's why I mentioned how it isn't as easy to build around as Cig Case. You have to build a deck specifically with this card in mind, but if you do it is powerful. Guardian could actually be a boon to Finn, as in solo it gives him an evade target if he wants it for Pickpocketing 2 (and because it has hunter it even has the potential of discarding his weakness instead of reshuffling it in). — StyxTBeuford · 12985
I wonder, if you read the "Prey only" keyword correctly. The parasite is easier to ignore in high player counts than low. I currently play Winnie in Forgotten Age in a Chuck build. Once in a while, I have to evade it, until our goon Leo has nothing better to do than kill it. All other players can simply ignore it. — Susumu · 363
You misunderstand. I think it’s better in solo because solo requires being a generalist, which this helps support by letting you test higher than normal as long as you’re event heavy (and events too tend to work better in more versatile builds). Cig Case by contrast rewards specialization, as it works more consistently the more you build around your highest stat. Specialization is harder to do in solo. You’re right that prey only means it is arguably easier to ignore on higher counts, but I would counter that boards in multiplayer tend to be more cluttered with enemies, making running away and putting distance between you and the guardian slightly harder. In solo, this is fairly easy to do so long as you have a plan in case you draw another enemy. But certainly it depends on team comp and positioning. — StyxTBeuford · 12985
OK, I can see, how the LCC can be of better use for speciallists, however it was the remark "On lower counts the weakness here is less meaningful as you can feasibly ignore it", which made me wonder. As even with more monsters possibly spawned at the same time in multiplayer, the Guardian is only an issue for yourself and possibly whomever wants to take care of it. I just recently finished my first sucessful solo run of Carcossa. With Safina, and the card was amazing in her. I earlier had an unsucessful run, where she followed Zoey, who stayed in the asylum and even though that deck was not good enough after three scenarios to beat Hastur, I really enjoyed the Crystalizer a lot even then. However, the Guardian can be a pain in solo, in particular for an investigator, who fights only with events and want to save them for the "impotant stuff". — Susumu · 363
And yes, I did come along to manage the enemies, in particular thanks to the excellent "Suggestion" (1) as well. But that card exhausts, so once there is more on the board also has limited use.. — Susumu · 363
Kymani Jones can also more easily deal with the Guardian of the Crystallizer since it enters play exhausted. — AlderSign · 236

I finally had a chance to try this card out yesterday on my blind run through the first Dream Eaters scenario. I'm playing Tony in a group that doesn't have a dedicated cluever so I'm running both Evidence! and Intel Report to help out on the clues side of things. This card really pulled its weight ! The ability to play an event that nets you clues while then attaching it to the Crystalliser and commit it again for 2 book pips on a subsequent test makes Tony into a pretty reliable clue-getter. Despite being the least clue-focused of our 3 player group I came out with more clues than anybody else while still breezing through the zoogs. Great card. Can recommend.

I do have a question about the interactions with a couple of cards though, which hopefully some of you more knowledgeable folk can clear up. Firstly, how would it interact with Ever Vigilant ? Could you play this as one of your assets after EV is played and then still attach EV to it afterwards or does the discarding of EV occur before the reaction effect comes into play ? Secondly, does the reaction effect only kick in immediately after you play the event ? For example, could you play Well-Maintained onto one of your guns and then a few turns later when it gets discarded attach WM or would that not be allowed ? Delay the Inevitable is another event that could be affected by this if it turns out to be a restriction. I'd assume that it would be fine, but the wording on the card is "after you play an event", which could be interpreted differently.

Sassenach · 179
Ever Vigilant attaches to the Crystallizer just fine but events that don't get discarded immediately don't - the Crystallizer replaces the standard discard that happens when playing an event, but those event's don't have that, so there's nothing to replace. — TheNameWasTaken · 3
@thenamewastaken I think he's suggesting a sequence of: play Ever Vigilant, play Crystallizer (with ever vigilant), attach ever vigilant to crystallizer, which would not work. If the crystallizer enters play after the timing point that it's looking for, it can't trigger, even if the event is still resolving. Play =/= resolve. — SGPrometheus · 809
@SGPrometheus What does "After you play an Event" mean? It should be the timing point after complete execution of the event, right? The discard of Ever vigilant happens AFTER all three assets are in play. This discard can be replaced by the crystallizer, as it is already in play. — trazoM · 9
@trazom I might be looking at this from too much of a Magic perspective, but the only timing point when a card is "played" — SGPrometheus · 809
Part 2: would be after costs and targets are determined and when the effect goes on the stack (not that AH has a stack, per se). The parts you're describing are the resolution of that effect, not the playing of the card. Again, this might not align perfectly with the actual rules, but it aligns with MtG's timing rules, which i consider a gold standard. — SGPrometheus · 809
From Appendix I, I understand that the trigger occurs in step 4. — trazoM · 9
trazoM has it right - an event is considered played after its effects resolve. — TheNameWasTaken · 3
Appendix I says clearly that a card is only considered to be discarded (in the discard pile) when its initieted effect is resolved. This means that "Ever Vigilant" will discard after the chosen assets are in play, triggering "Crystalizer of Dreams" in the process, as trazorM rightly points out. — Alogon · 1118
Cool, that's handy. EV has double book pips so that's a pretty sweet combo. — Sassenach · 179
Wow, that's nuts. Good tech. — SGPrometheus · 809

How does this card interacts with Wendy's Amulet?? It seems to me that if you have both Crystallizer of Dreams and Wendy's Amulet you can loop events to infinity like for example:

  1. Initiate investigation test -> (if you fail) play Live and Learn

  2. Live and Learn doesn't discard but attaches itself to Crystallizer of Dreams (so Wendy's Amulet forced effect doesn't trigger?)

  3. Commit the attached Live and Learn to the same test so it lands on top of discard pile

  4. If you fail repeat from step 1.

If this is true then you can do allot of naughty nonsense using this card with Wendy, not to mention Will to Survive, Eucatastrophe, Trial by Fire...etc.

Alogon · 1118
The forced effect part of the amulet is based on "playing the event", so it should trigger and put it on the bottom of the deck with forced taking priority on the amulet from this card.. — Bronze · 185
Yes, you are right, in the reference book under "Forced abilities" it's stated "For any given timing point, all forced abilities initiated in reference to that timing point must resolve before any [reaction triggered]  abilities referencing the same timing point in the same manner may be initiated." — Alogon · 1118
Similar question can be asked of The Painted World. In that case I (think) the replacement is a floating constant, so again has priority over the ‘when’ my text but it’s not 100% obvious — Difrakt · 1287
Is there anything stopping the Crystalizer taking the card from the bottom of your deck? — Kael_Hate · 1
‘Instead’ is a replacement effect, and can only trigger if the card is doing the thing replaced (in this case being discarded). Wendy’s amulet already replaces discarding so there’s no discard event to replace with putting the event on Crystallizer — Difrakt · 1287
Newer player checking for understanding... You are allowed 1 accessory right? So you couldn't have *both* Wendy's Amulet & the Crystallizer of Dreams active, right? — stitchingbeauty · 1
By default, no. But there are ways to have both such as (a) the card Relic Hunter which gives you an additional accessory slot or (b) Dr. Elli Horowitz who could put the Crystallizer into play without it taking up the accessory slot. — Death by Chocolate · 1440
I think you could still have some synergy with Wendy's Amulet, but it's not that powerful. You could wait until the late game to play the Amulet, and keep the events from being removed from the game by Abandoned and Alone before that. — Zinjanthropus · 227

Heads up, seems liek this think was a projected release intended for the upcoming lady Winifred. Yeah. It's gonna be cool.

Smack a variety of small/middling events with a variety of pips, such "You owe me one!" or Followed in there and then dump them on tests to score free cards.

Tsuruki23 · 2522
Running it with Versatile in Patrice to build a hand-outside-the-hand. She loves those Mystic events with wild pips anyway; might as well double-dip when the events are useful. — Yenreb · 15
If I get it right, you can return played events to your hand with Winifred by committing the cards attached to Crystallizer of Dreams and draw the Elder Sign during the skill test. Crazy!? — Miroque · 25

An interesting interaction I just happened upon and didn't see mentioned elsewhere: if I'm not mistaken, you should still be able to attach Weakness events to the Crystallizer after playing them! This could be cool tech for builds that go through their deck at least twice per scenario to prevent having to play the Weakness a second time.

Matching weaknesses here: arkhamdb.com arkhamdb.com

thekuhlone · 3
If I'm not wrong, weaknesses events aren't "played" but only drawn, so You can't use them under Crystallizer Of Dreams. — Piegura · 1
Some are played as a usual event like the list shows, but they don't have an effect they only consume actions and ressources. For me it's rather niche since not many owners of the weaknesses have access to the crystallizer and purchasing a versatile seems not worth it. — Tharzax · 1
They are absolutely played. Some of them (Lodge "Debts", Unsolved Cases) are removed from game after playing, and I agree completely, that I would not take Versatile for "Dark Memory", but a Rogue with "Dark Pact" or "Pay Your Due" or an Underprepared Wendy could absolute consider this, if they cycle their deck fast! — Susumu · 363

EDIT: Well I inserted my foot into my mouth well and good, thinking The Painted World worked with this card. I'll keep the post as it was, but please ignore the part pertaining to Sefina Rousseau.

ORIGINAL POST.

Hmm, a rouge card that synergies with event cards; now who could stand to benefit the most from that?

In all seriousness, this is a bit like Backpack in that you either build a deck around it, or you notice you have a large number of events in your deck already and might as well add it.

Any rouge that takes it will likely also want to consider Narrow Escape, Swift Reflexes, and Decoy for their symbols.

As for which investigator to give it you, signature events cards are a good place to look. Sefina get a whopping THREE extra Guts or Manual Dexterities, thanks to The Painted World, before she's even starts choosing cards, so for her, it's an auto-include. "Skids" O'Toole might want a look, what with On the Lam having the most skill icons in the entire game (counts as 4), as well as a selection of guardian event providing and icons. If you still hold out hope of Lola Hayes, two Unexpected Courages from Improvisation will be really nice, and EVERY event is at your disposal.

I personally am going to try an event heavy Rex Murphy deck, with lots of icons to proc his special ability, including Search for the Truth.

Lucaxiom · 4347
The Painted World won't attach to Crystallizer because it removes itself from the game instead of discarding, so Crystallizer can't replace the discard step with attachment (since the discard step has already been replaced). That said, she does still run a lot of events. I also really like the idea of running it with Rex Murphy. There are a lot of great seeker events with solid commit icons. — Death by Chocolate · 1440
I'm still intrigued by the idea of running this in a Patrice deck once Versatile comes out. . Dunno if it would really work, but in theory it offers the chance to double her hand size. Could be worth a try at least. — Sassenach · 179
TPW interaction is ambiguous. RAW it doesn’t work because in RAW there is no timing window between ‘playing’ and ‘discarding’ an event, however RAW actually means Crystallizer (and relatedly, Wendy’s amulet) doesn’t work *at all* which means there’s an issue with written rules — Difrakt · 1287
However, if changes to RAW create this timing window (this is anticipated) Crystallizer WILL work with TPW. Compare writing for TPW which creates a replacement effect, which Crystallizer can override, to Mystifying Song which never goes to the discard window because the remove from game is part of resolving the card. (Let’s pretend Marie would ever want to versatile this card) — Difrakt · 1287
Even if that is an issue, and even should the suggestion you make be implemented, Crystallizer still wouldn’t work with TPW. “All aspects of an effect have timing priority over all "after..." triggering conditions that might arise as a consequence of that effect.” All of the effects of playing TPW (including the RFG substitution) have timing priority over the Crystallizer’s ‘after’ ability. By the time it resolves, the discard ‘timing window’ has already been replaced and there is nothin for the Crystallizer to replace anymore. — Death by Chocolate · 1440
That’s for consequences of an effect, it doesn’t override priority for later conditions. — Difrakt · 1287
Hard to give a relevant example here. If TPW was play an event and draw a card’ you couldn’t trigger Double Double until after you had already drew the card, but that has nothing to do with the creation of floating conditions (the situation we’re dealing with here) — Difrakt · 1287
Right, but one of the consequences of ‘playing TFW’ is the floating replacement condition. See the FAQ on Wendy’s Amulet for the example involving Lure. Lure’s effect causes it to not be discarded at the end of resolving it. TFW does the same. The same principle applies if Wendy plays TFW (using “You Owe Me One”). YOMO would got to the bottom of her deck (after TFW was fully resolved), but TFW would not go to the bottom of Sefina’s deck. It would still RFG. (In contrast if Wendy played any other average event, that event would end up at the bottom of its owners deck, and then they’d draw cards and then YOMO gets bottom’d.) — Death by Chocolate · 1440
You’re confusing applicable rules, Wendy can’t send *any* card that she doesn’t own into her deck because it’s not her out of play area, but that has nothing to do with timing priority. The rule you’re talking about has to do with trying to nest a triggering condition in between effects listed into a card, it has nothing to do with effects created once the card has resolved which is the situation we’re dealing with here. Since TPW has fully resolved its text before it hits the ‘after playing’ window there is no timing priority, and we’re back to standard conflict of timing windows, which Crystallizer of Dreams can override. — Difrakt · 1287
Lure is even simpler and has nothing to do with timing priority: Wendy doesn’t bury lure into its deck because it never hits the replacement effect. If lure was ‘instead of discarding, attach’ then Wendy’s amulet would override the lure text as usual. — Difrakt · 1287
Okay, first of all I never said Wendy could put *any* card into her deck. The forced effect would trigger, but since she doesn’t own the card, it would go to its owners version of that out of play zone. But that’s not the point here. In a standard conflict of timing windows ‘after’ effects resolve last. Both TPW’s actual text and the hypothetical Lure text you propose create a floating effect that has already replaced the future event of discarding with a different game effect. When Crystallizer resolves, there is no conflict because Crystallizer can’t replace an effect that has already been replaced. TPW’s replacement clause isn’t ‘waiting around’ to trigger, it has already changed the future steps of its play resolution during the resolution of its game text. — Death by Chocolate · 1440
No that’s not how AHLCG works, the game is designed around a static set of timing windows and triggers that react to those timing windows. Lure doesn’t work with Wendy’s amulet because attachment prevents discard from ever occurring (read section on ‘attach to’). Wendy’s amulets forced conditions only fails because the FORCED effect only interacts at a specific point (after you play) and has a replacement condition (instead of discard) since the FORCED window expires without ever having a discard to replace that’s why amulet fails to affect lure, but again none of this applies to Crystallizer. — Difrakt · 1287
You need to review the ‘instead’/replacement effect section. They don’t change future conditions intrinsically, they create a floating trigger. In this way there isn’t a distinction between TPW and Crystallizer — Difrakt · 1287
Jesus Christ Guys. What happened while I was away?! — Lucaxiom · 4347
Thank you for directing me to the ‘instead’ entry. So, TPW would need to specify ‘would’ to ensure itself. Without that, the Crystallizer is the most recent replacement and thus takes precedent. — Death by Chocolate · 1440
Am I understanding correctly that if I add 1 Crystallizer to my deck, I set aside both Guardians as bonded cards? — alphasquid · 1

EDITED: Since this card's text was errata'd to match Summoned Hound, there now exists two ways to "cheat" this into play without adding its Guardian weakness: Dr. Elli Horowitz and Archaic Glyphs (Markings of Isis). Rex Murphy, Ursula Downs, Lola Hayes, and the upcoming Monterey Jack all have access to these combos (and Trish Scarborough can use the Dr. Elli version).

Voltgloss · 364
Rogue Mandy cannot take Rogue assets, just events and skills. — StyxTBeuford · 12985
Absolutely right, my error. The "edit review" button doesn't seem to be working or I'd fix this. Thanks! (Also technically anyone with access to the Glyphs could use Versatile for one copy of the Crystallizer as well.) — Voltgloss · 364
Can Lola Hayes play Rogue assets with Archaic Glyphs (markings of Isis) if her current role is Seeker? I can see it working if there is a lightning window between taking the test and then switching your role. — techoatmeal · 15

Can we get an official ruling on whether The Painted World can be placed under Crystallizer of Dreams? I understand the arguments for and against this in other reviews, but there still seems to be some uncertainty.

My take is that according to the section "Play" in the Rules Reference, TPW is played after you choose a card to copy and pay the appropriate number of resources. You can then activate Crystallizer of Dreams, and only at this time. Then the Painted World/copied event effects are resolved, including a new "Instead of discarding..." effect. Then according to the "instead" section of the rules reference (see below), the most recent replacement (the one on TPW) is used. So the combo doesn't seem to work.

"The word “instead” is indicative of a replacement effect. A replacement effect is an effect that replaces the resolution of a triggering condition with an alternate means of resolution. =If multiple replacement effects are initiated against the same triggering condition and create a conflict in how to resolve the triggering condition, the most recent replacement effect is the one that is used for the resolution of the triggering condition."

jmmeye3 · 620
TPW does the replacement effect while playing, Crystallizer’s replacement is *after* playing, therefore is the more recent effect — Difrakt · 1287
I like that interpretation because I want to try the combo, but the "play" section of the Rules Reference seems to suggest that the card is "played" after its cost is paid and any restrictions and conditions are met, but before resolving the effects of the event. Here's the quote: "Any time an event card is played, its effects are resolved and it is then placed in its owner’s discard pile." This seems ambigious, but to me fits better with playing being separate from both resolving the effects in the text box and separate from discarding the event. — jmmeye3 · 620
It's been debated back and forth and no one can come to a solid ruling right now- strong arguments exist both ways. It's literally just going to have to be FAQ'd. Until then, play this in Sef however it makes sense to you, or just don't play it with her. — StyxTBeuford · 12985
i don't see, where can be any confusion. Apendix I. clearly states, that the card is considered played AFTER its effects are resolved — Adny · 1
I really do not think this is the place to settle FAQ disputes. Threads upon threads, even here, have already gone back and forth over the card. Just wait for it to be settles officially, there's little point in continuing these discussions on DB. — StyxTBeuford · 12985

Question: Imagine I have 5 event cards attached to Crystallizer of Dreams. I play an event that has good skill icons. Can I remove a card from Crystallizer to make room for the new event I played to take it's place, without committing it ? Or can cards only be removed from Crystallizer if they are committed to a skill test? An example of not wanting to commit a card on Crystallizer could be that there are no relevant icons (ex: it's a fight test, and none of the cards on Crystallizer have a fist icon).

VanyelAshke · 178
You can only remove the cards via skill test committing. — StyxTBeuford · 12985

How does this work with Double, Double?

Let's say I play an event and attach it (both Double, Double and Crystallizer of Dreams are "after" the event so afaik, I get to choose). I then activate Double, Double and play the event as if it were in my hand. The rules say

Any time an event card is played, its effects are resolved and it is then placed in its owner's discard pile.

This leads me to these questions:

  • Can I commit the event from beneath crystallizer to its own (Double, Double-)play action since it is not really in my hand, I am only playing it as if it were?
  • Does the event get discarded from beneath crystallizer (Rules: The game state is considered to be altered throughout the duration of the indicated ability or action, from its initiation (including the paying of its costs, attacks of opportunity, etc) through the resolution of each aspect of its effect, and up until its completion.). One aspect of playing an event is, after all, discarding the card IMO
  • Can I then reattach it by using the ability on crystallizer?

I personally think no - yes - yes…what about you?

Leilasaida · 8
I am no rules expert, but my thought is that Double Double says that the event is played again as if it is in your hand. It cannot be under Crystallizer of Dreams if it's being played. — DjMiniboss · 44
I think no, no, no is correct due to the rules for the phrase "as if...". After the first play you attach it to the crystallize. If you now activate Double, double this event is considered to be in your hand (and not attached to the crystallizer). If you discard the imaginary second event and end the play action you change back to the actual physical game states which means your event is attached to the crystallizer. — Tharzax · 1
The "as if" does not change where the event is. It only allows you to play it while not physicaly in your hand. The problem here is with the undefined state, where the event is while being played . It is not in discard yet (it goes there as the last step), but it must have left your hand, otherwise you could commit it to its own test... So the question is, does the event leave the zone, from which it was initiated (in this case "in play", attached to the crystalyzer)? it will definitely be discarded though and can be attached again. — Adny · 1
The event card will still be attached to the crystallizer since you don't change the cards physically (so it never detached from the crystallizer during double double). But during the reaction of double double, that event you just played is considered to be on your hand (and is during the play action it is virtually not attached to the crystallizer). At the end of the second play action you discard the event virtually and jump back to the physical setup where the event was just attached to the crystallizer. — Tharzax · 1
@Adny I also believe that one big part of the problem is the question of 'where' the event actually is while it is being played. I checked the rules page on events and did not find any information about this. The other big problem is that both reactions trigger at the same point in time. If crystalliser could only happen after Double, Double there would be no issue here IMO. — Leilasaida · 8
@Tharzax I interpreted "play that event" as the actual event itself, not some kind of illusionary copy. Lets say I would to Double, Double Cheap Shot(2). I believe I could return it to my hand even if only one of the two instances suceeded by 3 or more since it would literally be the same event. What makes you think the event is not physically being played again? — Leilasaida · 8
You can find the answer for both questions in the entry for "as if", where it's written "The indicated ability or action is resolved with the altered game state in mind, but the actual game state remains unchanged." and further explanations. — Tharzax · 1
@Leilasaida: Yes, it is the same physical card being played, from where ever it ended (corollary: RfG/Exiled cards cannot be doubled as they are not part of the game anymore). @Tharzax: you interpret the cited rule incorrectly. The game state remains unchanged. The event is never "virtualy not attached". The "as if" only circumvents the rule, that events are played from your hand and lets you play it from wherever. After you choose to play it, it enters the big black void not defined in rules as any other event played from hand. — Adny · 1
Yes, I agree with Adny. — Kryha30 · 17
No, yes, yes. — snacc · 980
@Adny While I share your interpretation of how "as if" works, just a small heads up: in the FAQ for double, double it is stated that you can "absolutely use it on the painted world" which is removed from the game. — Leilasaida · 8
Playing an event constits out of thee steps: 1. Paying costs, 2. resolve effects and 3. discard the event. The Rule for "as if" says "The game state is considered to be altered throughout the duration of the indicated ability or action, from its initiation (including the paying of its costs, attacks of opportunity, etc) through the resolution of each aspect of its effect, and up until its completion.". And while assests are put into play events stay in your hand until they are discarded. — Tharzax · 1