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Stanislav Dikolenko
久遠腹地 #200.
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FAQs

(from the official FAQ or responses to the official rules question form)

  • Q: If I fail a test that has costs other than actions associated with it (like spending ammo or charges), do I need to respend costs to 'attempt that test again'? My read is no: it's not a new action, it's just 'go straight back into the skill test', without spending costs. Is that correct? A: Correct. The investigator does not need to pay any costs associated with the skill test again (such as ammo, actions spent, etc), although anything spent to improve the previous test (like committed costs or resources on a Talent) are indeed lost at the end of the first test.

  • Q: Does a skill test end at the same time as the action spent to trigger it, if it is, for instance, an Investigate test or Fight test? Do end of skill test and end of action effects trigger at the same time? A: Correct, an action that is a skill test (such as Investigate or Fight) ends at the same time that the skill test ends, so both such effects would trigger at the same time.

  • Q: A recent ruling on Neither Rain nor Snow stated that keywords like Alert and Retaliate (and presumably Haunted) are not "effects of the skill test" and in fact trigger at some point after the test ends [NB this ruling has been overturned, see Neither Rain nor Snow]. This raises three questions. First: what is the exact timing of the resolution of Alert et al. and do other effects have priority over them? Specifically, is Live and Learn resolved before or after resolving attacks/haunted effects? Second: Is there a difference between cards that reference "effects OF a failed skill test" (NRNS) and "effects FROM a failed skill test" - Live and Learn and more importantly, Self-Sacrifice? The latter has traditionally been assumed to allow the committer to resolve effects like Alert etc. rather than the performing investigator but this ruling makes that murkier and calls into question the intended use case of that skill. Third and finally, taking the wording of Read the Signs into account are we now to understand Haunted to be a keyword that triggers in St.6 but in fact sets up a delayed effect that resolves at a later timing point? Otherwise I'm unsure how Read the Signs is supposed to ignore Haunted (which is it's traditionally understood use case.) A: 1) Neither Rain nor Snow can cancel Alert/Retaliate (and Haunted), treating all as “effects of the failed skill test.” 2) If playing Live and Learn, Alert/Retaliate would have resolved already during Step 7 of the initial test, as “effects of the failed test.” 3) Yes, Read the Signs was always intended to be able to ignore Haunted, a “keyword on your location that would trigger during this investigation.” 4) There is also no mechanical difference between “effects of the failed test” and “effects from the failed test.”

Last updated

Reviews

Interaction with Drawing Thin via designer Matt Newman.

Greetings,

This is a bit of a tricky interaction, so I apologize for any confusion here. I agree it’s a bit ambiguous. I think the ruling that makes the most sense here is the following:

As a general rule, when you use Live and Learn to attempt a test a second time, all effects with a duration that expire at the end of the first attempt will have expired by the time the second begins. This includes effects used during the first attempt that say “until the end of the skill test…”, “…for this skill test,” or the bonuses from committed cards, which are all discarded at the end of the first attempt. Effects that are inherent to the test itself (the test’s parameters, what happens if you succeed/fail, that sort of thing) all remain the same, even if they have a duration of “for this test.” So, for example, if an effect said “play during a skill test. until the end of the skill test, increase the test’s difficulty by 2,” that would expire at the end of the first attempt, whereas if the test itself said “Fight. Increase the difficulty of this test by 2,” that increase in difficulty would exist in both the first and second attempts.

Now for the tricky part: Which is Drawing Thin? Is it an effect that initiates during a skill test with a duration of that expires at the end of the skill test? Or is it an effect which alters the inherent nature of the skill test itself, such that it would affect both attempts? Since Drawing Thin does not explicitly say any variation of “until the end of the skill test” or “for this skill test,” and since its triggering condition is a “when” reaction to the skill test initiating and not something you use during the first attempt, my ruling is that Drawing Thin is changing the skill test’s inherent difficulty to be 2 higher—altering the nature of the test itself. Therefore if you use Drawing Thin when the skill test initiates, and then use Live and Learn to attempt that test a second time, the increased difficulty would carry over to the second attempt.

Again, apologies for the trickiness/ambiguousness. Hopefully this clears up this interaction, as well as clearing up how Live and Learn works in general. Thank you for bringing this to my attention; I’ll be sure to add it in the next edition of the FAQ as well.

Cheers!

Calprinicus · 5788
I’m sure this was mentioned elsewhere, but how does this work with events exactly? Someone mentioned using Look What I Found and that makes sense because it’s an effect/result without a check but what about a card like Backstab? Backstab is a Fight action but it changes the stat used to modify the action. So if I fail a Backstab and then play Live and Learn... would I then Fight with Agility but only deal 1 damage if I succeed? — LaRoix · 1643
This clarification only applies to extra effects added or that modify a test, not the test itself or the result. — Django · 5070
And what is the interaction between L+L and SWEEPING KICK? Can I get all the effects in the second test (+1 foot, +1 damage, + evasion)? Thanks — yuna1979 · 1

This is an extraordinarily good card. It definitely ranks in the top 3 for the Forgotten Age cycle, if not being the very best level 0 card in the cycle. It is good for 3 simple reasons:

A: It plays somewhat similarly to Lucky! in that it lets you play fast and loose with your card and resource commitment to tests. Say for example you can beat a -3 with minimal effort (Agnes Baker Rite of Seeking investigating a Shroud 2 location for example) but there's a -5 in the bag, Live and Learn will help you beat that check with assurity.

B: It protects against tokens and very large negatives (more common in harder modes). Giving you a retry on that test.

C: It recovers lost time and resources! Namely the action spent to attempt that test and whatever charges, ammo, secrets, supplies, whatever you used on the original test. (In the example above, lets say Agnes Baker drew a -5, with Live and Learn she can try that test again, without spending an extra Rite of Seeking charge, and the +2 from Live and Learn will cover against another -5).

All in all, Live and Learn is the card to pick if you play through some key assets or events, the bigger the gun, spell or event, (or if you just got a good pupper) the better Live and Learn is.

Tsuruki23 · 2522
Why would Deduction or Double or Nothing (ie, skill cards) still be present in the second test? The first test has completely ended, so they are no longer committed and are instead in the discard. Is that not right? — duke_loves_biscuits · 1256
@duke_loves_biscuits: Yeah, I think all that stuff is gone, which means this card probably falls short of greatness (but it still pretty decent.) — CaiusDrewart · 3125
Basically this card grants another action and +2 to that test. Not sure if it's worth a deck slot over Unexpected Courage, for example. — Django · 5070
This is pretty fantastic for Silas, who will often commit a skill card to a test, and then if if comes up as a fail, pull the card back, and then try again. This card saves him an action in that process, and grants him +2 on the second attempt. — Greatsageishere · 141
Yeah, I don't see why this needs an errata. It says after the test ends, so there's no case to be made for keeping your committed cards active. Still, a card that's almost as good as Lucky!, costs 1 less resource, and can actually deal with the tentacle, is pretty amazing. — Indog · 1
It is also much easier to work with Dark Horse than Lucky. The two best red cards don't play well together. — duke_loves_biscuits · 1256
I agree with Django--I don't see how this card is better than Unexpected Courage, even in a Preston deck — Malgox · 20
Unless you can chain it with "Look what I've found" and Take Heart... — Malgox · 20
This deck is far better than Unexpected Courage... It is bizarre that anyone would think otherwise. Analyze it from this perspective: How much does the card increase the likelihood that I succeed when I use it: — FBones · 18838
Sorry, was hoping that Shift + Return would let me put a line break. Okay, just do a simple analysis of how much this card will increase the likelihood of a success when you use it: Unexpected Courage increases your chance of success by 25-30% in typical cases on Hard. The key point is that you do not know beforehand that you will fail. Live and Learn gives you a completely second chance after you fail to succeed, and gives you +2 on top of that. In most cases on Hard that will give you a 85% - 90% chance to succeed when you otherwise would have failed. So Live and Learn is about 3 times better in positive skill tests (i.e., no Retaliate and not during mythos). I admit, there are nuances to take into consideration (taking a second pull from the chaos bag), but there are also nuances going the other way: the investigators who have access to Live and Learn tend to have higher will-power and lower fight/intellect, so they are less likely to be needing boosts on mythos and more likely to need them on bread-and-butter positive skill tests. The real question is not "why not use Unexpected Courage," but rather "why not use Lucky!?" Except for Dark horse decks, Lucky is generally superior. (note that Live and Learn does NOT synergize with Fire Axe because all your money is already spent.) — FBones · 18838
Another way to think of it is that Live and Learn is ROUGHLY equal to Unexpected Courage + 1 Action---as you get a second chance to succeed on the skill test you just failed, but is not useful during Mythos. — FBones · 18838
It's also worth mentioning that you can take both Unexpected Courage, Live and Learn, and Lucky, and you'll probably succeed on more tests than if you omit Live and Learn. I don't think it belongs in every deck, but it's definitely a good card. — Zinjanthropus · 227
I agree it doesn't belong in every deck. However I also agree there is NEVER a reason to include Unexpected Courage if you don't already have Live and Learn. The ONLY case where this isn't vastly superior is for Mythos protection. And in that case you want Guts, not Unexpected Courage. — Kitsunin · 1
What is the interaction between L+L and SWEEPING KICK? Can I get all the effects in the second test (+1 foot, +1 damage, + evasion)? Thanks — yuna1979 · 1
@yuna: Yes. These are the base effects of what you are attempting. Think of it like that: With L+L you get to try again what you were initially attempting and you lose everything that you modified your first attempt with (e.g.: pumps/reactions for the duration of a test, commited cards, etc.). — rxfisl · 1

If I am reading this correctly, this card has a weird synergy with .18 Derringer, .18 Derringer (2), and Chainsaw. If you attack and fail, you get your ammo/supply back, but, since you don't repay costs on Live and Learn tests, you don't respend the ammo/charge. So the second test costs nothing, and, if successful, deals damage, and, if not, gets you an extra ammo/supply. I am not sure how you generate bullets and gasoline out of thin air by messing around, but you also can't kill birds by getting scared in the real world, either.

LivefromBenefitSt · 1051
Yeah I'm certain this synergy is intentional. Also works with Look what I found/Dumb Luck/Oops and Old Keyring. — StyxTBeuford · 12985
So, I attack with a full Chainsaw and miss. I get the suply back. I use Oops! (2) to hit anyway, then trigger Live and Learn but fail a second time (maybe I trigger Drawing Thin to make this happen). I hit and end up with 4 supply on my Chainsaw.... — LivefromBenefitSt · 1051
Yup, Survivor working as intended. — StyxTBeuford · 12985
Yup, see my Chainsaw 'review' for the logical extreme. — Death by Chocolate · 1440
Death by Chocolate: if I could ever get that to work, I would be so happy. — LivefromBenefitSt · 1051
Correction for @StyxTBeuford: This interaction does not work for Old Keyring. .18 Derringer says "if you fail, place 1 ammo on .18 Derringer.", so you get 1 ammo every time you fail. Old Keyring says "if you succeed, remove 1 key from Old Keyring.", so even if you fail multiple times through Live and Learn, you simply don't remove keys from Old Keyring (but not add new ones). — ak45 · 450
Right, I was meaning more its functionally the same (most of the time). You Keyring a location to bring the shroud down to LWIF range (2 or less), you fail, play LWIF, then Live and Learn and try the test again, without losing a key unless that second investigate succeeds. — StyxTBeuford · 12985

What a great card! Lucky! is a great card and this card will not change that, but it's so nice to have a card that fills a similar role to Lucky! while at the same time not being the same and still having its own space. I'm currently playing an Ashcan Desperate/Dark Horse/Yaotl deck and I'm taking out my Lucky!s because they cost one resource and have no icons in a deck that discourages having resources and encourages having cards with icons in the discard pile. They synergized badly with the deck. This card (while not necessarily getting along with Yaotl) is a great replacement in that deck.

In general, it's very well balanced with Lucky!. While Lucky! gives you a chance to pass a test when you would have failed after you've seen the token, Live and Learn lets you weasel out of an auto fail or other really bad draw. Lucky! costs a resource, while Live and Learn still resolves side effects of a bad test and does not guarantee success (or further side effects of another failed test). But it's free!

I'm happy to see the designers make a card like this, and I've enjoyed playing with it.

NTGuardian · 24
I agree--I see this card as a slightly worse Lucky!, but it's not inconceivable that some decks could prefer this one, or could want both of them. — CaiusDrewart · 3125
Aren’t you overrating this card? Basically it just grants a free action after a test is failed and +2. You still lose all Ressources and cards committed. Might be useful if you built your deck around failing, otherwise I don’t see this cards greatness. — Django · 5070
It's great, if you don't invest heavyly into tests, like Dark Horse Pete would — Adny · 1
@Django I think that committing everything while Live and Learn is in hand is not a point of this card. In my opinion the best thing to do with this card is: attempt to the test and fail it, reap rewards of failure without losing an action (Rabbit's Foot, Look what I found!, even Oops! looks way better when played this way), then pass that test with skill bonus. This card is just a sweet addition to fail-to-win archetype. — KptMarchewa · 1
Yeah, I think it is especially useful for the situations where ammo costs are spent such as when shooting with your ornate bow and miss the mark, or you are tight on actions for an evade or even a single point of damage to keep going with your turn, but come up short. — Bronze · 185
With Wendy and her amulet, could you attempt the same test 3 times? First time normally, then with her ability discarding Live and Learn, then by playing Live and Learn from the discard pile using her amulet? — bigstupidgrin · 83
bigstupidgrin- Yes. You can also use Lucky that way. It definitely kind of feels like you're cheating when you do it. — Zinjanthropus · 227
With lots more hindsight, I agree with Django's original comment. This is just a much weaker card than Lucky, and subsequent cycles have given solo survivors better options. Since you have lost whatever skill cards are committed to the test (unlike in Lucky), it has limited use on tough tests, and since you still suffer the consequences of the loss (again, unlike Lucky), it's useless against most treacheries. I'm strongly considering replacing this in my solo Ashcan Pete deck with the new Keep Faith. The downside: Keep Faith needs to come out fairly early to justify its cost and the randomness of if/when those bless tokens get pulled, and that's doubly hard in a deck where my mulligan priorities are Magnifying Glass, Peter Sylvestre, Leather Coat/Bulletproof Vest, and Fire Axe. But compared to Live and Learn, 'd maybe rather take a chance on having a bunch of +2s that might come up randomly compared to a single guaranteed +2 that's useless on harder and more consequential tests. This also aligns with the fact that some scenarios get tougher as they proceed, either by design (like a boss fight) or by nature (when time is running out, there's less margin for failed tests)... so even if you don't get the Keep Faith very early in the scenario, you're increasingly likely to get it as you approach the point in the scenario where you're more likely to need it. — mpinzur · 1
counterpoint: you often have a greater than coin flip chance to succeed if you're (for example) one up on a test. Don't commit any cards, if you do fail, play L&L. also, it's a card that can let you redraw an auto fail, perhaps you pull back the commit using Silas' ability, Try and Try, or Grisly Totem (3). That's not even getting into the benefits that Survivors can often reap from failing a test. Commit Take Heart, trigger Rabbit's Foot, then do the test again at +2 and without having lost an action. There's also fail combos that can be done with the Survivor card pool — Zinjanthropus · 227
I think this is better than Lucky when your commitment comes from Assets. If you're taking tests you don't need to commit to, obviously that means Dark Horse, but it also means any deck at all which approaches test at an advantage through Assets. Mathematically, this card is better than Lucky! at improving your raw odds of success. The downside is that you lose anything committed to the test, the exception is an Event or the Uses of an Asset. If you are regularly performing actions without retaliation and via event or asset, with no other buffs, then this is strictly better than Lucky. This is, of course, not even bringing up fail-for-benefit synergy. — Kitsunin · 1
And I think, the majority of tests fit that case in which this card is good. There are some decks that will throw a Skill or Talent at the majority of tests, but those are rare. For most decks, this is at worst equally useful to Lucky!, often better. — Kitsunin · 1

Recently, I hear that I can play multiple Live and Learn for a single failed test. After the test initiated by L&L finished, the timing would go back to the initial failed test and the second copy of L&L could be play. That make me think some big combo.

Step 1: using Will to Survive(3) to avoid drawing chaos tokens.

Step 2: Fight with Sledgehammer(4) triple-action ability (+5 fight +5 damage) and using double Drawing Thin and/or Quick Learner(4) to make the difficulty of the test 1 or 2 above your fight value and failed the test.

Step 3: Using L&L to fight again. With +2 skill from L&L, the test is successful and L&L go into the discard pile.

Step 4: The timing is still after the first failed test, so we can play the second copy of L&L to fight again with Resourceful to get the first copy of L&L in discard pile back .

Step 5: Using the copy of L&L we get back from discard pile to fight again with second copy of resourceful to get another copy L&L back.

Step 6: Using the final copy of L&L to fight again... for total 24 damages in one turn for the boss.

Is it worth it?

Chris_yang · 4
Add some Oops! (2) for another 6 damage each. — Death by Chocolate · 1440
Playing this combo on an exhausted or engaged enemy: cool and awesome. — Maseiken · 1
Playing it on one engaged with another gator: war crime. — Maseiken · 1
The effects of Drawing Thin would persist on the Live and Learn tests, though, right? — housh · 176
Yes, Drawing thin would carry to the L&L attempts, so use Will to Survive(3) and the +2 skill build in the L&L to ensure the success. — Chris_yang · 4

The second answer from FAQ no longer valid: Question: Hello. Can you clarify interaction between Quick Learner and Live and Learn? In Live and learn faq you answered that "an action that is a skill test (such as Investigate or Fight) ends at the same time that the skill test ends". If i fail the first action and play Live and Learn my first action ended and new skill test is proceeding after first action - so, if I am right, it has no penalty from quick learner. Is it true?

To answer your question(s): No. The failed skill test and the test from Live and Learn are part of the same action, and would have the +1 difficulty from Quick Learner.

Sincerely, Alex Werner, FFG Game Rules Specialist

Arching · 7

Finally, this card found its place in a new investigator, Stella Clark. Because otherwise, this card is just not worth it. There're only two situations in this game, either you want to fail or win a skill check. And this card falls right down the middle. Yes, it's cheap, but you'd better get a successful check with one token pull, rather than two! Especially, if you resolve a non-number one.

Edit:

As the cards come out - opinions change, slightly.

I found where this card was supposed to be. It was always Patrice. Mind's Eye made it a lot more useful.

From now on you can start an investigate test (the least harm in failure), fail it - "Look what I found!" some clues - Live and Learn - then switch to your willpower and make a pretty solid investigation with + 2.

It's a bit niche, you might never find them together, otherwise you'd use it to insure more investigating, just not to lose those precious spell charges.

ambiryan13 · 177
I use this card as a third or fourth Unexpected Courage or Lucky. The goal of this card (like Lucky or Unexpected Courage) isn't to push your already failing stats into +1 or +2 of the test (e.g., taking your 3 willpower to 5 in order to pass a test of 4), it’s to give you almost guaranteed assurance that you’ll pass the test after you just happened to have failed a test you were already over (e.g., failing a willpower test of 4 despite having willpower of 6). Obviously there’s possible triggers for failing the test, and you have to take it over again...but I’d rather spend one action on a failure+success than spending an action on a straight up failure. Looking at it this way, it helps save other cards you might have thought about throwing into a skill test. — jdk5143 · 98
It's got synergy with Look What I Found as well. Fail by 2 and get 2 clues, then retry at +2 and get a third clue for passing.. — bee123 · 31
I hugely disagree with this review. — Tsuruki23 · 2522
Live and Learn is a crazy amazing card. It’s not Lucky!, but often functions similarly in letting you attempt tests you have no business passing without commits, and has amazing synergy with cards that play off of failure- Take Heart, Dumb Luck, Look What I Found, even Drawing Thin. It being 0 resources also makes it better in Dark Horse decks than Lucky oftentimes. It’s a beautiful card, and while Stella will probably be the best home for it, I take it in most investigators that also want Lucky. — StyxTBeuford · 12985
Truly spoken as someone who's never tried to get clues as solo Rita :P Also, it's worth mentioning that basically all 0xp Survivor (taboo) card draw requires failing (Rabbit's Foot and Take Heart), and even Drawing Thin makes you more likely to fail, so being able to redo a test with +2 is pretty strong. Gotta dig Peter Sylvestre out somehow. — Zinjanthropus · 227
While I love this card, and often find it to be a 2 resource cheaper Swift Reflexes with an unexpected courage attached in many decks. However, I'm not a fan of it with Drawing Thin because the 'redone' test is still at +2 difficulty for no additional gain. — Death by Chocolate · 1440
That’s true, but it’s still a possible synergy if you’re trying to engineer failure by letting you fail and then take the test at even. The larger point is that Live and Learn has a lot of uses and I struggle to not include it in the majority of Survivor decks. It’s particularly great in solo Yorick/Rita for clue getting. — StyxTBeuford · 12985
@Death by Chocolate: Yeah, I probably wouldn't bother redoing a Drawing Thin investigation with Rita, though maybe with someone who has better int. My point is just that, if you want to dig out your key assets for most Survivors (or even get clues at all with some), you're probably going to need to redo some tests, Live and Learn is a great way to do that without wasting an action. — Zinjanthropus · 227
StyxTBeuford I deeply disagree that it has a synergy with Take Heart, Dumb Luck, Look What I Found, Drawing Thin. Full disclosure, I play on Expert and a +2 bonus almost always isn't enough to beat a check. And getting a +2 for your 2 intellect (Patrice or Yorick) is going to make a huge impact on the test. You would fail it the second time with the chance of getting into more trouble. — ambiryan13 · 177
Basiclly what i saying is - this isn't an Expert Card! — ambiryan13 · 177
ambiryan13 If you are playing expert, yes you’ll need more than a +2, but that’s two closer to hitting the breakpoint you need. AND it just let you trigger a fail by card which is reliable value on expert for ‘success-less clues etc.’ - if your concern is fail penalties and you don’t see value in that package of cards in expert - that’s a different issue all together, and may very well be the case. But for a boost based deck like Silas who can use skills to succeed rather than a suite of assets. It’s pretty reasonable to be sometimes aiming for successes and other times aiming for failures, and this helps you do both in a single action. — Death by Chocolate · 1440
I also think an assessment of a card based on Expert is a relatively poor one as most people dont play on Expert anyway. This card functions brilliantly Easy to Hard that I’ve seen, and if you combo it with effects that trigger on failure it’s like getting Unexpected Courage plus another effect in one card. It’s definitely worth it and I take it in most of my Survivor decks along with Lucky! — StyxTBeuford · 12985

Setup question: is the second attempt part of the same action, or a second action that has its action cost waived? This leads to the real question: How does this interact with Quick Learner? Quick guess: it's like Drawing Thin in that if you use it in your first action you'll get -1 to both attempts (-1 +2 = +1 for the second go). This would be true if both attempts are considered part of your first action. However if the second attempt is a second action whose cost has already been covered (including the action cost), then L&L is now a full +2. Flavor-wise the second makes sense as you are benefiting from learning quickly.

Taevus · 755
Since L+L says to attempt the test again, rather than, say, giving you an action if the type you failed, I would say you're still on your first action. For instance, you Fight, fail, and L+L: you attempt the combat test again, but you don't actually take a fight action again. — SGPrometheus · 809
If you don’t pay an action for something, it isn’t an action at all for any rules purposes. There is a potential argument that L&L takes place after, so it happens between your first and second action here, however I would interpret that as irrelevant as you are retrying the same test, which is at +1 difficulty, so when attempt ‘that test’ again, it is still at +1 difficulty. — Death by Chocolate · 1440
Discussed on Discord. -- An action that is a skill test ends at the same time as the skill test (https://arkhamdb.com/card/04200). "that test" was only +1 difficulty because of a constant ability which is no longer true rather than something like Drawing Thin that alters the test itself. So it definitely loses the +1 difficulty when you LaL due to being "after" the test ends. — Yenreb · 15
Recently, I hear that I can play multiple Live and Learn for a single failed test. After the test of L&L finished, the timing would go back to the initial failed test and the second copy of L&L could be play. That make me think some big combo. — Chris_yang · 4
sorry I wrote the review in wrong place. — Chris_yang · 4